We had a leadership team meeting last night and got on to the subject of church vision. This is an area that I have to admit I've not done well on. Over the last couple of months a few people have commented on what they describe as a lack of vision and each and every time I have looked rather blank at the whole thing. Seriously, it throws me every time.
It's not that I have no idea what they are talking about, it's that I don't understand how they have missed it. As soon as I acknowledge though that they have missed it I also then have to acknowledge that I must have failed to communicate it. So my blankness just goes on.
The thing is though, all of us here have been preaching the vision for around the last 4 years. We've run sermon series on it, away weekends, training days, blogs, basically, the whole 9 yards. I partly put this lack of communication down to the fact that our vision has not fallen into the neat category that is often wanted.
Our tag line is, 'Helping people follow Jesus' and that is it. The vision within this though, is that we don't try help people by selling them a picture and product of Jesus that they may like. We are not trying to market Jesus so that people will feel warm and fuzzy enough to come along on a Sunday and sign up. Our picture is way more exciting than that.
The vision is for us to be church. Deeply deeply be church. That means that we commit spiritually, in depth, to one another, we show the hospitality not of the sterile coffee morning but of the lavish welcome of Jesus. We serve the least and welcome the stranger and invite all to be on the journey with us.
Last year one of our neighbours was uncomfortable with the Night Shelter here. When Mary spoke with her, she lamented that when she moved over the road from church she had expected that would mean that she was over the road from nice folk who would voice hymns on Sunday and be peaceful. Instead, asylum seekers, the homeless, the middle class, drug addicts, young people are all congregating here through the week and its just not what had been hoped for.
That is our vision, right there. To be church in the most Gospel sense of it. To seek to embody what it is to be a community of Jesus Christ in all its diversity and variety and in that we will be 'helping people follow Jesus'. We are not the church of the least, the most, the homeless, the housed, we are the church of Jesus Christ. Or at least that's where we're headed.
Some have left, because this wasn't clear enough or because they wanted a different vision. Some left because it wasn't comfortable here and they wanted safety and sanctuary and a place that wasn't so hard to be in. Some have arrived though, enlivened by a church truly engaged and with something to say. Some love the fact that we don't just preach it but live it. Some are seeking Jesus who never before had set foot in a church. Really, not church movers but new blood looking for Christ.
Vision, I'll give you vision, lets be Gospel.
I'm one of the ones who have missed the church's vision. Could you drop me a line and let me know. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteAntony.
I just did Ant, read above and see the million conversations I've had with you ..... see, not a notion .....
ReplyDeleteAs much as there is truth in your words, there is also a trace of that assumption that the people who don't see the vision are the ones to blame. I know, you do accept some responsibility, but the general thrust here seems to be that people who don't get what you mean are timid conservatives who want an easy life.
ReplyDeleteI know you know that this is not entirely true, but that's what I'm reading between the lines here.
For me, the trouble with a vision such as 'helping people follow Jesus' is that it manages to be both brilliantly simple and maddeningly vague. It's a bit like saying 'our vision is to make there be more good things and less bad things.' I agree in principle, but it leaves me rather lost. My mind scampers away from vague things.
For everyone who doesn't get this vision because it is 'uncomfortable' I bet there is at least one other who doesn't get it because it sounds too abstract.
Just a thought.
I'd accept that if we didn't say at the same time, that what it looks like is spiritual depth and growth and along with this we run discipleship courses and renovare groups to help this. We say it's helping the least and we have a night shelter that runs through the winter, and we campaign for the asylum seekers amongst us. We say it's hospitality and we have a congregation more diverse than any other I've belonged to with all manner of events cultures and classes.
ReplyDeleteIf you have assumed timidity then that is for you to say not something I'm giving. If you want mission that looks like an event or a separate entity, then this is not for you, it is a way of living and being and it is, to my mind the most encompassing and exciting of things. It is Gospel and Jesus is bang in the centre, not worship, or Sunday but Jesus Christ. I get excited about it just typing this stuff.
I am happy with a diversity of Christian expression and that other churches will offer other gifts and visions that will look very different but I offer no apology for the beauty that is what we are being.
ps I miss you being around
ReplyDeleteThat's more concrete, and more helpful. I know you believe these things - it's the expression (in words) that is sometimes vague.
ReplyDeleteI don't assume timidity - I read it in the subtext of your post. There seems to be an underlying assumption that if people don't get it, it is because they are not interested in something bold. You implicitly link 'warm and fuzzy', 'sterile', 'nice folk' etc with the people who don't get it. I don't think I want to be associated with those things (especially not nice folk), but I would probably count myself as someone often confused about WBC vision. As you know.
I sometimes miss being around. Some times more than others. ;-)
I love your vision.x
ReplyDeletei like your blog kez, and they should have gone to specsavers, i don't even sign up and can see the message! maybe a vegas style church display is what you need :)
ReplyDeleteWelcome to Vague-as!
ReplyDeleteThat sort of thing?
;o)
Cheers Jim, Andy, not helpful! :)
ReplyDeleteFunny though. And i often find funny helpful, so, yes helpful. Andy wins!!
ReplyDeleteSerious about completely identifying with the other, though. A la Jesus.
Perhaps the old saying is apt here?
ReplyDelete'There are none so blind as those who will not see'
Maybe 'vagueness' is a reason for not grasping the nettle so to speak (consciously or otherwise).
Just a thought ... ...
@anonymous...
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure I've been grasping the nettle for many years, and continue to do so. I've been at the forefront of a number of attempts to move WBC into the uncomfortable and the unfamiliar, with the aim of broadening our concept of 'vision'.
It is slightly maddening (and perhaps a little insulting) to be considered one of those who 'left because it wasn't comfortable here and they wanted safety and sanctuary and a place that wasn't so hard to be in'. Especially when that's what I've fought against for so many years.
Care to venture another thought?
Rob you're assuming too much. Thoughts that are ventured by other readers may not apply to you. I also say in my blog that, 'Some have left, because this (vision) wasn't clear enough or because they wanted a different vision.' I haven't labelled anyone who left as people to blame and I haven't suggested that all who are not there are wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe feedback we get in leadership is often though that WBC is a hard place to belong and that we need to create more spaces of rest because we have so much challenge. Leadership needs to take this seriously. That is different though to not knowing what we are about, and my point is that we have been clear and consistent about this and that's why people have found it hard, or wrong, or knackering, or exciting.
All in the community need to engage with this and leaders need to constantly reflect on how we are following Christ and how we can be good community and move forward in Jesus.
I think WBC is a great community, not perfect, not easy but faithful, enquiring and not scared to step out. One thing it doesn't lack is vision and spiritual depth. I am excited about much of what is happening and scared by the reaction to it in some areas. There is no bravado and I keep my sights fixed on a Jesus who stood in the presence of the father, fearless and vulnerable.
Hello Kez.
ReplyDeleteI don't think I'm assuming too much here, really. There is an implicit link in your first post between those who don't want the vision and those who want an easy time. And a pretty clear connection in anonymous's post between not getting the vision and simply not wanting to get involved. Also, there are certain linguistic nods in anonymous's post to my first post, which suggests a certain degree of specificity. It might help if I knew who 'anonymous' was.
You do suggest other possibilties for people leaving, but it is pretty clear where the main thrust of your argument lies. WBC is just too radical and Christ like for some people, so they've gone. There is no acknowledgment that some of us have gone because we felt let down or unfulfilled by the way things were. I know from talking ot you that you have more subtle and thoughtful distinctions in mind, but your writing here comes over as... well, sorry, but a little superior.
I think your vision is good, and right. I think you put your lives into it and don't ask anything that you don't do yourselves. However, I think your communication of it is not as clear as you believe it to be. I think the overall tone of your posts here, whether intended or not, suggests a faint heartedness on the part of those who have left.
I am also aware that my posts probably sound belligerent and argumentative, and have to acknowledge the limitations of text in debating these things. All I can do is speak for myself and say that I find myself concerned by the attitude expressed here.
Rob
I note your concern your anger and the fact you haven't mentioned personal reasons for leaving, or your own real need for a rest which is all part of a wider picture. This post has touched a nerve for you which I'm not totally responsible for. You stated in the last week that you would welcome a direct approach stating what I think. Well this is it but it does seem that you're not so keen now. The anonymous post is my mum so whilst she refers to you she has no personal knowledge of you and that's what I was trying to get across. This is not a personal attack for you. This is about a consistent vision I think has been presented. I am aware you don't gel with it. I am sorry about that. I wish you had stayed.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHmm.
ReplyDeleteWell, firstly, I'm not angry, not at all. I'm capable of disagreeing strongly with a point without being angry. This isn't an emotional response. It's a carefully thought out one. I think you, Kez, are brilliant. But I think you’re wrong here, so I’m going to trust you to hear my arguments without assigning an emotional motive to them, and to know that I will still like you after I’ve spent this post disagreeing with you.
Secondly, and most importantly. This:
"You stated in the last week that you would welcome a direct approach stating what I think. Well this is it but it does seem that you're not so keen now."
is nonsense. You are basically saying that unless I agree with you, I am against your right to speak out. To clarify:
Yes, I want a strong approach from you.
Yes, I am keen to hear your opinions and am glad that you have posted them here.
No, I do not agree with them.
It is disingenuous to say that by disagreeing with you I am unhappy with you speaking out. It kind of makes me seem like I only want to hear things I agree with. I don't. But I do want to be allowed to challenge those opinions. I’m grateful for the opportunity to debate this issue.
As I have stated here, many times, I am not against the vision. It is not that I don't gel with it. I am very much for it. My problem is that the articulation of that vision has been unclear in the past and that your words here in this blog are dismissive of those who found it unclear.
I have a number of reasons for leaving, yes. I’m not saying that this issue is more or less important than any of the other factors that led me to leave. But the conversation you started is about your vision, and why people don’t see it. I have tried to express my opinion on that specific matter.
You started by being frustrated that people aren’t hearing you, and not understanding why. I get that, I really do. But when I’ve tried to tell you why I don’t hear you, you have argued against my points. I think you, and the rest of the leadership, are going to continue to feel frustrated by people’s reasons for going until you stop trying to argue against them and start listening to what they have to say.
Hope that makes sense.
Maybe you need to still be around to be aware that the leadership are doing a whole lot of listening. In fact I think if they did much more listening their heads might just explode.
ReplyDeleteWhat you see as Kez arguing with you, I see as her responding to what you have thrown at her which is surely what you had in mind. Would be a rather strange blog response if she'd just said 'ok'.
It might also pay to remember that listening works both ways.
This is an emotional response. The way this reads is that you are trying to put Kez down and are criticising both the way she thinks and the way she works when actually she's great on both counts.
I agree that there is an attitude of superiority coming across here but it is not from Kez!
Hi Val.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure there is a lot of listening going on, and I'm aware I'm not around to judge that. I can only speak for my experience, and from conversations I've had with people, who really don't feel listened to. I've tried to make it clear from what I've said that I have a lot of respect for Kez et al, and that this point of contention does not invalidate other things. I'm glad your experience is different from mine.
If you think I'm trying to put Kez down, you really aren't reading what I've been saying (or you choose to disbelieve all the positive things I've said). I've criticised a couple of very specific things, and couched them in a context of respect and support for the vision expressed. I'm glad she's responding, but I'm unsatisfied with some of the responses. I think this is a dead important issue, and so I'm going to challenge it where I see a problem.
It really, really isn't an emotional response. It is strange to me that people can't disagree without it being seen as born of anger or contempt. I've gone over everything said here a number of times, and thought my responses through. Or listened, if you want to put it that way.
I also think Kez is great, and for the most part believe in the way that she works. It is natural to want to defend someone you care about. It is much harder to criticise them. But I think in this case it is the right thing to do. Sorry you feel it is superior. I did acknowledge earlier that I can come across as argumentative in print. That's why I've tried to express humility in every post. You clearly haven't registered that, but it is there.
Rob
I didn't say that your response was emotional, I said that mine was.
ReplyDeleteAs long as you feel that all of your comments are constructive, said with love and still relevant considering you left the church quite some while ago then so be it. If however you have already walked away & this is just a chance to vent then maybe it's inappropriate.I see you as someone who speaks their mind and can't imagine you left without already making your feelings known.
Your view of humility and mine are clearly very different as is the correct time and place to criticise, if it is necessary. I know if your comments were directed at me I would find them hurtful had I spent time and energy Kez has trying to be and do everything for everyone.
Ah - sorry. My bad. I read the 'this' incorrectly. Apologies.
ReplyDeleteAs to still relevant... that's an interesting point, and one I've thought about. I still feel very connected to WBC, and very concerned for it. And I have a lot of conversations with others who either were or still are attending. So it's certainly not having a vent. I'm very aware that there is a conversation about why people have been leaving, and I want to understand too. Leaving WBC was - is - painful for me.
I think the time and place have to be here and now, don't they? All I'm really addressing is the contents of this blog.
Thank you, though, for taking the time to respond. I really don't want to cause hurt or upset. But I also need to engage with this debate, because I think it matters.
Rob
I would like to give a fuller response but i'm doing this via my phone while camping so am a little limited! I fully expect you to like me after this, firstly because this is discussion secondly because I am real nice! I fine with this discussion but Rob you can only invoke yourself . Theamy others you've spoken to need to either be named or left to speak for themselves. The other part of this then is the people who are ariving, having found a church that lives what it talks about. There is an excitment about that I won't have diminished. I'm not arguing with everyone rob and neither is the rest of leadership. The current question for us has been around vision. Like I keep saying, we have one. It's bearing fruit, it's Gospel and it's exciting. I think that too is worth listening to.
ReplyDeleteAll fair enough. And I've tried real hard not to invoke others. Except you did, in your first post. You made comments on other people's motivations for leaving. And you did just now, about the people who have just arrived. It's hard not to have the conversation without reference to others. I mention other people in the same way you do - to give evidence for what I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteOverall, I just want you to know that there are people who haven't felt the vision, but don't fit into the category of nice, fuzzy-Jesus, easy life Christianity. I worry that you don't see this. And I worry you'll lose more if you don't acknowledge it.
I do still like you, and probably won't poison your food when you come round.
Rob
I take your point. I guess what I'm trying to say Is it's unhelpful to say I think this and so do all these people I speak to but who I won't name. If you're worried about others leaving then name them ( not here) and conversations can be had. There is some celebration now Rob. Seven new people in membership a feel of enjoying each other. The listening meetings highlighted mass diversity which will mean struggle and beauty. Massively portfolio means that we don't exsist around Sunday worship but Sunday worship exists around our following jesus. I love that. Really love it. It's not common. There are some special things going on and I am lucky to be a part of that. I don't make light of disatisfaction any more than the deep satisfaction. People have left for all the variety of reasons I put down they have also stayed and arrived because Jesus is being found. That's good right?
ReplyDeleteIt is good. I'm glad we've had this discussion. It is good to have good news about the church. I hope you have heard what I'm trying to say.
ReplyDeleteIt is for other people to make their point, and I hope they do. I was partly reacting to the concern that this issue was just me feeling persecuted and being pissy. Wanted you to know that it isn't just me, it's a wider issue.
Keep saying big, bold things. And I hope it is still considered valid if I engage with them, even though I'm not physically present in the church.